I know all of you are aching to discuss the text in more detail. Since we just don't have enough time in class, you now have a chance to continue this discussion at home. Make sure to post and reply to your assigned group.
Friday, March 12, 2010
Group 2
2) Heathcliff is an example of “motiveless malice.” There is no cause for his cruel treatment of Edgar, Isabella, Hareton, or Nelly.
Post by Monday before class and reply by Wednesday before class.
Heathcliff is a man who cannot deal with his own emotions. He doesn't know how to handle rejection so he takes it out on others, almost as if he is jealous. Heathcliff had ran off after he heard Cathrine was going to be with Edgar instead of him. When he returned he expected Cathrine to come back to him riht away but she doesn't and he can't take it so he acts in an uncontrollable manner. Cathrine tells him to leave before Edgar catches them talking. He responded, "By hell, no! I'llcrush his ribs.."109. Heathcliff randomly starts to break out after Cathrine trys to protect him. He makes him self feel stronger and more powerful than Edgar when it wasnt even necessary. Edgar hadnt conversed with him to start a rage. It's immature and foolish.
Lauren, I understand what you are saying about how you believe he had no motive to want to inflict pain in Edgar, but I must disagree with you. I actually find that he does acquire a motive for wanting the revenge you mentioned. Before that passage when Heathcliff said this, Edgar entered the room where Heathcliff and Catherine were and said, "I have been so far forbearing with you, sire, not that I was ignorant of your miserable, degraded character" (108). When Heathcliff attempts to rekindle an old friendship with Catherine, Edgar becomes un-rightly defensive and begins to insult and degrade him in front of Catherine. These insults ignite an upsetting in Heathcliff which motivates him to fight back. Yet, he still remains passive using only small insults while Edgar strikes him in the throat and leaves to gather more men to brutally kick remove him from Edgar's house. It is only then that he aggressively seeks the revenge which is when he say's your quote above. From this, it can be seen that he was in fact motivated to seek this revenge from Edgar's jealousy and defensiveness which got out of hand.
Heatcliff expresses this cruel treatment even with the person he loves, Catherine. Heatcliff shows no control of his emotions and his malice spreads on to Catherine when he is attempting to be nice to her. Heathcliff turns Catherine's accusations into a strange sort of love poem. He is willing to call himself her murderer if it means that she will haunt him. He says,"Oh! you said you cared nothing for my sufferings!... I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!"(158). Heatcliff cannot even talk to his love without threatening her. He is uncontrollable and his malice spread beyond the other characters and onto his love, because of how uncontrollable it is. His actions cant be contained through any action taken.
Heithcliff really has no reason for treating these other characters poorly. He actually doesn't want to inflict harm on these characters but only wants to be just like them. Nelly is telling him that he could easily beat Edgar Linton if he wanted to. Heathcliff thinks differently and replies, “But, Nelly, if I knocked him down twenty times, that wouldn’t make him less handsome or me more so. I wish I had light hair and a fair skin, and was dressed and behaved as well, and had a chance of being as rich as he will be!”(52). His treatment of others comes from his jealousy that he isn’t the same as the rest of the characters who are rich and good looking.
Heathcliff's has always been a jealous man and it turns into his personality. Mr. Lockwood describes him for the first time, "I beheld his black eyes withdraw so suspiciously...and when his fingers sheltered themselves, with jealous resolution, still further in his waistcoat" (1). Lockwood describes Heathcliff's fingers as jealous resolution which implys to Heathcliff's jealous personality. If Heathcliff already comes off as if he is better than everyone it shows he has no motives and simply cannot control his emotions. Going off of what Luisa said, he strives to be better than everyone and has numerous outrages which are unnecessary. When anyone comes off as a "better" person he goes off at them like he did on page (52,Luisa's quote). For him its "I want, I want" that's just the way he his and the way he acts.
Lauren, I would like to disagree with the idea of Heathcliff always being jealous throughout his life. In the beginning of the book when Heathcliff and Catherine are friends, Heathcliff exhibits very little aggression toward anybody. He was treated poorly by some, but he never acted angrily about it. When Catherine returns after her time with the Linton’s, she becomes more ladylike and abandons her old habits which were unladylike. This included her affection toward Heathcliff which can be understood when she is explaining why she married Edgar. She says, "And he will be rich, and I shall like to be the greatest woman of the neighbourhood, and I shall be proud of having such a husband" (73). At this moment, she explains why she does not desire to marry Heathcliff; he doesn’t fit the image that she seeks in order to become lady like. At this moment, Heathcliff leaves to become the man she would like: rich and handsome. Unfortunately, when he returns, he is greeted with this man named Edgar who fits her image and is married to her. This is what sparks the hatred and Heathcliff’s desire to seek revenge. This is the foundation for why he seeks revenge. In this case, it can be seen that Heathcliff is interested in inflicting pain on those who have hurt him.
Luisa you said that Heatcliff really has no reason to be treating these other characters poorly, and I would respectfully disagree. Heatcliff went on to say, “What is it to you? I have a ... right to kiss her, if she chooses, and you have no right to object. I am not your husband: you needn't be jealous of me!" (105). Just because Heathcliff is not her husband doesn't mean Catherine won't act jealous and possessive of him. In this moment, it's hard not to be on Heathcliff's side, because of the situation he is stuck in. Heatcliff is affected negatively, because Catherine has left him in this situation. Even though it seems as if that Heatcliff is the main reason why he acts like he does, I believe that one can’t say that Heatcliff has NO reason due to the extent that statement has.
Heathcliff is a man who cannot deal with his own emotions. He doesn't know how to handle rejection so he takes it out on others, almost as if he is jealous. Heathcliff had ran off after he heard Cathrine was going to be with Edgar instead of him. When he returned he expected Cathrine to come back to him riht away but she doesn't and he can't take it so he acts in an uncontrollable manner. Cathrine tells him to leave before Edgar catches them talking. He responded, "By hell, no! I'llcrush his ribs.."109. Heathcliff randomly starts to break out after Cathrine trys to protect him. He makes him self feel stronger and more powerful than Edgar when it wasnt even necessary. Edgar hadnt conversed with him to start a rage. It's immature and foolish.
ReplyDeleteLauren, I understand what you are saying about how you believe he had no motive to want to inflict pain in Edgar, but I must disagree with you. I actually find that he does acquire a motive for wanting the revenge you mentioned. Before that passage when Heathcliff said this, Edgar entered the room where Heathcliff and Catherine were and said, "I have been so far forbearing with you, sire, not that I was ignorant of your miserable, degraded character" (108). When Heathcliff attempts to rekindle an old friendship with Catherine, Edgar becomes un-rightly defensive and begins to insult and degrade him in front of Catherine. These insults ignite an upsetting in Heathcliff which motivates him to fight back. Yet, he still remains passive using only small insults while Edgar strikes him in the throat and leaves to gather more men to brutally kick remove him from Edgar's house. It is only then that he aggressively seeks the revenge which is when he say's your quote above. From this, it can be seen that he was in fact motivated to seek this revenge from Edgar's jealousy and defensiveness which got out of hand.
ReplyDeleteHeatcliff expresses this cruel treatment even with the person he loves, Catherine. Heatcliff shows no control of his emotions and his malice spreads on to Catherine when he is attempting to be nice to her. Heathcliff turns Catherine's accusations into a strange sort of love poem. He is willing to call himself her murderer if it means that she will haunt him. He says,"Oh! you said you cared nothing for my sufferings!... I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!"(158). Heatcliff cannot even talk to his love without threatening her. He is uncontrollable and his malice spread beyond the other characters and onto his love, because of how uncontrollable it is. His actions cant be contained through any action taken.
ReplyDeleteHeithcliff really has no reason for treating these other characters poorly. He actually doesn't want to inflict harm on these characters but only wants to be just like them. Nelly is telling him that he could easily beat Edgar Linton if he wanted to. Heathcliff thinks differently and replies, “But, Nelly, if I knocked him down twenty times, that wouldn’t make him less handsome or me more so. I wish I had light hair and a fair skin, and was dressed and behaved as well, and had a chance of being as rich as he will be!”(52). His treatment of others comes from his jealousy that he isn’t the same as the rest of the characters who are rich and good looking.
ReplyDeleteHeathcliff's has always been a jealous man and it turns into his personality. Mr. Lockwood describes him for the first time, "I beheld his black eyes withdraw so suspiciously...and when his fingers sheltered themselves, with jealous resolution, still further in his waistcoat" (1). Lockwood describes Heathcliff's fingers as jealous resolution which implys to Heathcliff's jealous personality. If Heathcliff already comes off as if he is better than everyone it shows he has no motives and simply cannot control his emotions. Going off of what Luisa said, he strives to be better than everyone and has numerous outrages which are unnecessary. When anyone comes off as a "better" person he goes off at them like he did on page (52,Luisa's quote). For him its "I want, I want" that's just the way he his and the way he acts.
ReplyDeleteLauren, I would like to disagree with the idea of Heathcliff always being jealous throughout his life. In the beginning of the book when Heathcliff and Catherine are friends, Heathcliff exhibits very little aggression toward anybody. He was treated poorly by some, but he never acted angrily about it. When Catherine returns after her time with the Linton’s, she becomes more ladylike and abandons her old habits which were unladylike. This included her affection toward Heathcliff which can be understood when she is explaining why she married Edgar. She says, "And he will be rich, and I shall like to be the greatest woman of the neighbourhood, and I shall be proud of having such a husband" (73). At this moment, she explains why she does not desire to marry Heathcliff; he doesn’t fit the image that she seeks in order to become lady like. At this moment, Heathcliff leaves to become the man she would like: rich and handsome. Unfortunately, when he returns, he is greeted with this man named Edgar who fits her image and is married to her. This is what sparks the hatred and Heathcliff’s desire to seek revenge. This is the foundation for why he seeks revenge. In this case, it can be seen that Heathcliff is interested in inflicting pain on those who have hurt him.
ReplyDeleteLuisa you said that Heatcliff really has no reason to be treating these other characters poorly, and I would respectfully disagree. Heatcliff went on to say, “What is it to you? I have a ... right to kiss her, if she chooses, and you have no right to object. I am not your husband: you needn't be jealous of me!" (105).
ReplyDeleteJust because Heathcliff is not her husband doesn't mean Catherine won't act jealous and possessive of him. In this moment, it's hard not to be on Heathcliff's side, because of the situation he is stuck in. Heatcliff is affected negatively, because Catherine has left him in this situation. Even though it seems as if that Heatcliff is the main reason why he acts like he does, I believe that one can’t say that Heatcliff has NO reason due to the extent that statement has.